Christine Michel Carter
00:00:11
Hello, everyone, and welcome to The Work-Life Equation, a Bright Horizons podcast. The only podcast featuring candid conversations, stories and strategies from corporate leaders, public figures and everyday people like you and me who are putting the pieces together to make life work. I am one of your hosts, Christine Michel Carter.

Priya Krishnan
00:00:31
And I'm Priya Krishnan, the Chief Digital and Transformation Officer at Bright Horizons.

Christine Michel Carter
00:00:36
Have you been Priya?

Priya Krishnan
00:00:37
I've been great. How are you? You look fantastic.

Christine Michel Carter
00:00:40
Thank you so much. You know, it's another week day. I'm living and living the dream. I'm very, very excited about this week's guest.

Priya Krishnan
00:00:48
Likewise. I've always been inspired by music, so this is going to be a fun one.

Christine Michel Carter
00:00:53
Absolutely. But before everybody meets her - this week's here we go conversation! Which for the new listeners, a here we go conversation is what other people call hot topics or dinner table topics. For me and Priya, it's not a dinner table because who eats with their kids around a dinner table? But it's something that makes you say, “oh, here we go.” This is one of those parenting moments where the rubber is going to hit the road and it's going to be tough. And mine this week, Priya, was my daughter is so into the arts. She's into playing her violin, she's into videography and photography. So when she comes to sets with me, like the podcast taping or when we've done magazine shoots, she's always so engrossed and just enamored with everything. But she doesn't see all of the technical drama, she doesn't see all of the blood, sweat and tears involved. She doesn't know how hard it was to get to that point. And I'm always stuck between how do I let her pursue her dream without putting mud on it, without stomping on it?

Priya Krishnan
00:01:56
I have the same challenge because both Sanjay, my husband, and I are engineers and our oldest son is gifted. He is exceptional at music, he is great at drama, he's wonderful at the performing arts. But there's a side to it, Christine, that I've watched over the years, which goes into how he expresses himself, how his self-worth has gone up, how confident he is. And there's a part of me who says maybe I should have grown up having a lot more of the arts and the opportunities to express myself. While we encourage him, I feel there's a part of me which just wants to be more like him. So that's been the interesting aspect as I've watched it. So maybe that's a balance we all need to straddle as we move along.

Christine Michel Carter
00:02:48
Absolutely. These kids know the way. I always say, Amaya is my shero she's really raising me. She's definitely the adult in the house, if you ask me. So I should take a page out of her book. Today's guest is an award winning recording artist and Canadian Music Hall of Fame Inductee, a trailblazing international icon with a nearly three decades long career. With six critically acclaimed studio albums, she has carved out her place in music worldwide and several genres. But what many people don't know is that alongside her illustrious career in music and acting, the Canadian born mother of three has been recognized for her long standing commitment to fighting back against marginalization and inequity. Welcome Deborah Cox to The Work-Life Equation. That's the best I can do. How are you?

Deborah Cox
00:03:38
Thank you. It’s great to see you.

Priya Krishnan
00:03:41
So, Deborah, you've been really busy. You just got the key to the city of Toronto. You've been inducted into the Canadian Walk of Fame. You're on The First Wife's Club on BET. How are you doing all of this?

Deborah Cox
00:03:57
It's been a whirlwind. How am I doing it? I just put one foot in front of the other and I try to take it moment to moment. I try to not be overwhelmed, even though it can be, because getting all the logistics together is usually the hardest part. The easy part, really, is that two minutes doing the song or the little one minute speech or whatever. But as you know, putting together moments like this takes a lot of planning and there's a lot of working around, a lot of moving parts. So I've just been trying to stay present, trying to take it all in and try to have fun.

Christine Michel Carter
00:04:40
Deborah, you a lot of people may not know that your husband is your manager. This is a family business that you have built. And how are you managing to keep it together with raising teenagers and being in the industry? Can you even imagine starting your career with a husband and kids you grew into, that you had already had your career? But how are you able to keep it all together and keep their schedules together? Like you said, it's about the logistics of it.

Deborah Cox
00:05:11
Yeah, that's a lot of questions, Christine.

Christine Michel Carter
00:05:15
I know I'm a fan, so I'm like, oh, my God, I want to know everything. How in the world are you doing this? Like, they're teenagers.

Deborah Cox
00:05:22
You know how to it takes a team. Like, it takes a lot of people, and sometimes you may not have all the people, you know what I mean? I know for us, we've had a lot of great family support. My in laws help a lot. They'll come when the kids were younger. It was a lot more difficult, I think, in a sense, because we wanted to try to instill in them our values and our principles without relying on nannies. So for me, it was very important for me to be there for the moment, the simple, everyday moment, you know what I mean? And for my husband as well. And so I think we figured out a way that worked for us to keep that balance, to keep things in perspective, because you have to do that. You have to find a way to just let these kids understand that they are privileged. You know what I mean? Their lifestyle is very different from how I grew up and how my husband grew up. So we had to really work very hard and earnestly for everything that we have, and they understand that now. Now they're teenagers. I think we've poured into them as much as we could, and now they're ready for the world, in a sense, ready to take on certain things at their own pace and to just try to navigate through life as we try to guide them the best way that we can.

Priya Krishnan
00:06:56
The humility with which you speak is so inspiring. Deborah, you are right. It's the small moment. It's incredible that all three of your kids are on their own creative journeys. And how much of this is nature versus nurture?

Deborah Cox
00:07:15
I think it's definitely a bit of both. I would say 70% nature and 30% nurture. I think I had to really understand that every child is different growing up. I grew up in a Caribbean household, and all of us were treated the same way. We all wore the same clothes. You just kind of used what you had and you just figured it out along the way. My mother was very hands on, but she also had to work. My parents had to really it was tough, tough, tough beginnings. Very humble beginnings. I remember always going to school hungry, always going to school hungry, coming home. And we had to make our I was a latchkey kid. When we got home, we made our own sort of snack kind of thing. We turned on Oprah Winfrey, and that was our hour of hope and inspiration to see her and what she had achieved and accomplished and go, wow, there's more out there, you know what I mean, for black women. So, she was like the first television person that I saw that showed and exemplified that there is hope. So you just carry on doing what you do. And the same with the kids. I understood that at a very early age that Isaiah was different from Samaya, and Samaya is different from Kayla. And each of them learned differently and expressed love in a different way, and so we learned that over the years. So, yeah, there's no manual to this parenting thing that is absolutely and take it one day at a time and don't put so much pressure on yourself. As a mother, as a wife, just as a person. I think we are way too hard on ourselves. No one has it figured out perfectly.

Christine Michel Carter
00:09:24
No, we don't. And I'm so glad you brought it up, because a lot of our listeners are young parents, new parents who are just trying to navigate and don't really understand that. You will have to make those tough calls and you will face challenges that will question, that make you question, am I a good parent or am I really invested in my career into that point? Deborah, I would love to find out from you because you've had so many opportunities presented to you, and I'm sure you've had to sometimes make trade offs. Can you share with the audience a time when an opportunity may have benefited your career, but it would have been challenging for your family or vice versa? And how did you navigate that?

Deborah Cox
00:10:08
I remember auditioning for the movie Ray, but I remember being very very close to that opportunity. And then I found out that I had gotten pregnant with Isaiah. And then the next call back, when I talked to the producers and everybody, we were very much in contact. They were like, well, her character actually gets pregnant in the film. But then the very last sort of moment to get in front of the real team. I was so far along that I wasn't able to travel. I thought, “oh, my gosh, it's over.”

Christine Michel Carter
00:10:57
Right? Exactly. That's it.

Deborah Cox
00:11:00
Kerry Washington was the one that played that role and played it beautifully. There are moments that was one of them. There are moments where you just don't know what the end result is going to be. But it turned out that I had gestational diabetes, so I needed to rest. I needed to take care of myself with this baby that was going to be born weeks later. I couldn't just be flying and shooting and doing all that anyway, right? So I think it's important to, I say this all the time, that no is just like your redirection – is just putting you in a new direction and you don't know it at the time.

Priya Krishnan
00:11:56
Because I also see how you move that into an opportunity because you had your fourth album release when Isaiah was born, and then it almost seems like you've had these creative spurts as you've been pregnant with the kids. You had your fifth and your 6th albums released around the same time as your children were born. So it is so incredible that you turned that corner and moved in a different direction.

Deborah Cox
00:12:23
Yeah, I think that's what's been my thing. As a door closes, another one opens, and I just wait for it to open. I don't force anything. I don't chase anything anymore. I used to be that hamster on the wheel all the time. I used to just be constant because that's the only life that I knew. That was the way that I knew it would get me out of poverty. And I knew that I just didn't want to be poor, in short. So it's like, okay, I’ll sing for this session. Okay, I'll sing to that session. I'll do backgrounds. I do whatever the gig called for. I was there to represent and do what I needed to do. And I think that sort of discipline and work ethic is what brought me to this point. And La Salle is the same. He's very much. I mean, we really have to be mindful of it because we've missed a lot of personal things when we moved out to LA to pursue our dream, but we missed a lot of weddings, we missed a lot of birthdays, family functions, you know what I mean? You become the outsider as you're chasing your dream, but that's what it takes sometimes, the sacrifice.

Christine Michel Carter
00:13:34
But I think our listeners will appreciate that because so many folks can relate to just not wanting to be poor and feeling like that's in the back of their mind.

Deborah Cox
00:13:43
Yes. Later on in 2000, when I had the opportunity to go to Uganda, we did a lot of work around the AIDS epidemic to just raise awareness about what was going on out there in Mozambique. I mean, there was literally generations being wiped out. Like, these kids were left as orphans with no parents, no grandparents, because they were all wiped out because of the AIDS epidemic. And that was when it put just a fire under me to just keep fighting through it, you know what I mean? And to figure out how to use my platform whenever I had a platform, to just try to do good in the world and just keep moving forward. So that has always just been my thing, is just keep moving forward. And other opportunities end up in your path that you can say yes to or no to, because the opportunities just keep going on. You remember that game Frogger?

Priya Krishnan
00:14:47
Frogger, yeah. I was thinking about that.

Deborah Cox
00:14:50
That's how opportunities are, right? The lily pads come into view and then you jump on the lily pad to figure out but you keep moving forward, though. So that's an analogy for the morning.

Priya Krishnan
00:15:06
Did you take your kids on your travels? Did they see how mom was trying to change the world? Dad was trying to change the world?

Deborah Cox
00:15:16
Yes. Almost out of the womb. No, they were very young when they started traveling. Samaya was just six months when we took her to Bali. That was a beautiful moment. Isaiah has been traveling…I mean, when I was on Broadway, I was nursing him in between acts. That's when we found out also that he had a lot of allergies, a lot of food allergies. So we found out a lot of things while we were on the road. And again, we just had to figure it out and navigate through it. But again, if you can find your support system, your real tribe, your people that got your back, when the good times are good and when the bad times are bad, like those consistent people in your life, then you're good. And I've been very blessed to have that. A lot of really consistent people in my life, family and friends have been really dear to me.



Christine Michel Carter
00:16:22
And I understand that your kids are home schooled now, but they weren't always. Was there anything that made you make that call?

Deborah Cox
00:16:30
Well, the homeschooling started early for them. My older two were home schooled for, like, second and third grade. They went to public school for a year, then went home schooled for second and third grade because I was touring with a Broadway show. And then they went back to a school so we could have all of them together in one school. And then, the parkland shooting happened, and that completely changed our whole world. This lovely, safe suburb that we thought we lived in was just we were just drowning in grief and just sadness, and it was a really tough time. So we took them out of school and homeschooled them again and figured out a new routine. I continued working. We figured it out as a family, so they were homeschooled again, and then the pandemic hit. Okay, so right when Samaya was getting ready to transition into high school and Isaiah was getting ready to go to college, it was like, we got to figure this out during a pandemic. Now what do we do?

Priya Krishnan
00:17:49
Yeah, but I bet they were more prepared than most kids.

Deborah Cox
00:17:52
I know they were prepared. Yeah, they understood, but they were, like, ready to spread their wings and get out into the world. But what we did take away from the sort of lockdown and the pandemic was I think we learned a lot more about each other and what our wants and needs are, and we realized that we are a family of resilience.

Christine Michel Carter
00:18:16
I love that. You really did a good job of making the most of it and learning that you're a resilient family. Meanwhile, I was, like, taking pictures of my son me shaving his head.

Priya Krishnan
00:18:43
And I moved my family in the middle of the pandemic to another country and halfway across the world. So from India to the US.

Deborah Cox
00:18:55
Wait, what? We should be talking to you. How did you do that? 

Priya Krishnan
00:19:02
I think it tests resilience, and it's all the things that you said, you reflected back on it. And I think we got through it because we were a resilient, closed family. We could talk about everything. It was great for the kids, but it was also difficult for them to settle into a whole new environment.

Deborah Cox
00:19:20
Yeah, I can't even imagine what that's like, because these kids are very isolated. You're facetiming and you're doing everything virtually, so there's no connection. Now, our daughter, she's in 11th grade, and she's having a tough time even finding friends because everyone else is connected. Since 9th grade, she's entering in 11th, so she doesn't have no history there at the school. So it took a long time. It was very difficult, especially the first few months, which cried every day. It was tough. So I was just happy that we're here to talk and keep the communication going, because that's what it's about. You got to talk to these kids and get them to open up because it's a very different generation. I'm still learning them, still learning their love language, figuring it out.

Priya Krishnan
00:20:16
I think their need for validation externally is so different from ours. We are women who look at ourselves and we say, we're moving forward. There's that process. But for them, approval and seeking that approval from others seems really front and center. So it's an interesting dynamic, learning from that process.

Christine Michel Carter
00:20:35
But I feel like as mothers, we internalize all of our kids pain. So, Deborah, with the allergy situation, I know that, well, my son has an egg allergy, and it's just even the smallest things of people offering gum, I feel like, oh, my God, I can't believe you have an egg allergy. And I just hate life. But he's like, I don't even care, ma. But you take everything with these kids. It's like, we take everything that's going on with them, and it just becomes ours. And, yeah, we're resilient, but still, we need moments, too, I feel like.

Priya Krishnan
00:21:10
Yeah.

Deborah Cox
00:21:11
How do you decompress from the whole day of taking on everyone's burdens and problems and being that listener and being that one to save the day and then prepare the meals and get the kids together and organized for the next day for school? It's a lot like we multitask and we do it unapologetically, and we do it with a smile and with tears in our eyes or with a glass of wine. So I think you just have to again, that's where I say it's about grace. Give yourself some grace. I've been watching a lot of Michelle Obama's sort of her podcast and got her vote. Our daughter Kayla, her middle name is Michelle because of Michelle. So much that woman has inspired me, but I feel like she tells it like it is. She's like, there's some days where I feel unappreciated, there's some days where I feel unloved. But I'm happy that I'm with a husband that reminds me of my work. And again, I have the same type of husband. He validates me. He lets me know that I'm appreciated. He lets me know and he sees me. He understands that it's a lot. And I think when you have a partner in it that understands and can see and empathize with you, then that helps you to keep going. And I don't know, a lot of women don't necessarily have that. And you kind of have to find that moment within yourself to do that, to be your own champion. But sometimes it helps to have that other person outside of yourself to just give you that extra oomph and validate you.

Christine Michel Carter
00:23:04
There's nothing like, all three of us are boy moms. There's nothing like being a boy mom, isn't it?

Priya Krishnan
00:23:22
I know. It's amazing. It is amazing.

Christine Michel Carter
00:23:25
Yes.

Deborah Cox
00:23:26
I wish I could say that I'm joking. I don't get text the way in the timely manner that I would like it. I'd like to hear from my son a little bit more often

Priya Krishnan
00:23:38
There, you said it publicly. Hopefully he's listening to the podcast, but he knows.

Christine Michel Carter
00:23:50
Exactly. Oh, no, it's the boy mom love. It's just that mother son relationship. Exactly. Thank you so much, Deborah, for being a part of the Work Life Equation podcast.

Deborah Cox
00:24:05
It's always great to talk to you.

Christine Michel Carter
00:24:07
You are just absolutely amazing. What can listeners expect from you next? Besides being on Broadway, movies, TV, film albums, everything.

Deborah Cox
00:24:18
A lot going on in my world. But right now we've got The First Wife Club, which is a really fun romantic comedy. It's on BET Plus right now to be on BET later on. And it's just a fun series that sort of explores all of some of the topics that we've been talking to. Your connection to your spouse life as a woman over 40, like, trying to figure it out in a comedic way. So I had a really great time shooting it, and it's finally done. And it's out with Jill Scott, Michelle Beto, Michelle Mitchner. It's really, really well done, and it's a lot of fun. So you can check that out. I will be launching our Rose as well. Look out for that. And then I just executed, produced an independent film, and that'll be out next year and a lot of other fun things that I can't really talk about, but there's a lot going on, and I thank you for the support and for giving me another opportunity to kind of let people know what's going on in my life.

Christine Michel Carter
00:25:38
Priya, I know that some of the conversation we had today, especially with our “oh, here we go moment”, was around kids and letting them pursue their passion and letting them be a part of the arts, and that the importance of that in their journey. Does Bright Horizons have any resources around that?

Priya Krishnan
00:25:55
Yeah, we're all about kids, but I'm just the fact that we're three women here, I think how to raise confident girls, talking to children about kindness, empathy, just being good citizens, there's tons of resources on BrightHorizons.com, so people can go look this up and we'll find things there.

Christine Michel Carter
00:26:18

I love it, and Priya and I like to leave with a thought of the week. My thought of the week, Deborah, was really about frogger and understanding that a no could mean a yes to another opportunity. And I think in your instance, it led to seven other opportunities. It led to multiple albums that led to being on Broadway. So a “no” doesn't necessarily mean it's the end of the road for you. And I guess taking it back to my shero as well, and it sounds like yours, Oprah. What I know for sure, as she says on her podcast, is that no's aren't the end of the world, which is a good way to end.

Deborah Cox
00:26:58
And add to that “What I know for sure is that I don't know for sure.”

Christine Michel Carter
00:27:05
Yes.

Deborah Cox
00:27:08
And I think that's it. We try to constantly figure it all out, but we don't know just all the fun.

Christine Michel Carter
00:27:16
Love it. What about you, Priya? What's your thought of the week?

Priya Krishnan
00:27:20
I think the fact that you can reinvent yourself and it's similar to both of yours, which is the fact that you can continue to try new things. And I'm so inspired by the fact that there's a rose on the way and there's an executive producership on the way, that these can be new avenues and you can grow and you can continue to grow as long as you're curious.

Christine Michel Carter
00:27:44
Love it. Love it. 



Priya Krishnan
00:28:32
Bright Horizons is the world’s most trusted education and care company. We partner with employers to provide exceptional early learning, family care, and workforce education that not only transforms lives but also organizations because we believe education and care can change our world one child, one family, one organization at a time. Are you looking for a job? Visit careers.brighthorizons.com where you can join our talent community and receive the most up to date news and events at Bright Horizons. Follow us on social media to stay up to date on company news, join our live events, and see what’s happening in our magical centers. Join us by following Bright Horizons on Linkedin and @BrightHorizons on Instagram now.

00:29:19
Christine Michele Carter
Well, listeners, you have just listened to an episode of The Work-Life Equation with Christine Michel Carter and Priya Krishnan. Until next time.