[00:00:00] Intro - Paul Sullivan: I love that you referenced Dolly Parton on this quick aside. My wife drives our six year old to school every day and Dolly Parton's 9 to 5 came on and she said, Mama, can you play that again? And my mom was like, Yeah, I guess. Yeah, why not? But by the third time, she was like, There's a six year old sitting in her booster seat in the back of the car singing nine, two, five, what a way to make a living
[00:00:22] Priya Krishnan: Hello everyone. I'm Priya Krishnan. I'm the Chief Digital and Transformation Officer at Bright Horizons and one of your co-hosts for The Work-Life Equation podcast. 
[00:00:35] Paul Sullivan: And I'm Paul Sullivan, co-founder of The Company of Dads. Welcome to a very special bonus episode of The Work-Life Equation. Today, we welcome Kanika Chadda-Gupta, host of That's Total Mom Sense.
[00:00:47] Priya Krishnan: The Bright Horizons team actually had the privilege of meeting Kanika last year at the Mom 2.0 conference in Arizona, where she held on site interviews as the official podcast partner for the event. Kanika is a seasoned CNN journalist and podcaster, a mom of three, and the CEO of a full service digital marketing firm.
[00:01:07] Paul Sullivan: Kanika has had the opportunity to interview guests such as Chelsea Clinton, Kelly Rowland and America Farrar, which, note to any listeners, is my middle daughter's favorite actress from Ugly Betty to Barbie - oh we loved it - and today she's taking the reins as host of The Work-Life Equation and we'll be interviewing Priya and I for a special podcast swap episode. Kanika, welcome.
 [00:01:31] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: Thank you so much, Paul. It's such a pleasure to be here. And I'm so excited that we get to switch places and I get to interview both of you. You both have had such interesting career paths. Priya, you've had a global career in IT and with a startup childcare company in India. And Paul, you're a former columnist for the New York Times. Can you tell your listeners, your very loyal audience a bit about your backgrounds and how you got to where you are today in your trajectory? 
[00:02:04] Priya Krishnan: I would say it was a serendipitous journey, Kanika. I've, you know, probably would say that I, I really didn't know till I, uh, till I founded the childcare business in India, really what I wanted to do. So I did an engineering degree Good Indian kids do with engineering, become engineers or doctors, and then we went, I went on to do an MBA because I didn't want to code, did consulting, and then, you know, really liked the consulting career, but I felt like there was something missing. I had both my boys during that time.
[00:02:37] And genuinely felt this real passion for supporting women in the workplace, because that was an inflection point for me to say to work or not to work, uh, and then, you know, the fact that. I could be around children and support women in their career ambition to work felt like a real calling in life, which is why we moved [00:03:00] back to India from the UK and I set up Clay, which was my, my venture, uh, which was very gratifying, uh, as a journey, I was also fortunate enough, and I think I've been purposeful about this is around saying, how do I design Uh, my life around the boys. I have two boys who are now 19 and 16 and as I exited the venture and I joined Bright Horizons, a big part of that decision was as they headed into college, how could I spend more time with them, uh, and, you know, go continue in the same space, but be around them as they transition into, into adulthood. So I've been fortunate to  morph, my journey several times over to design it around what was important to me in life, which was, you know, being around the kids and being mom first. 
[00:03:48] Paul Sullivan: Yeah, I think for me, I think, you know, all of our journeys are, are accidental, um, in, in some way. And for me growing up, the only thing I wanted to do in life was to be, uh, to, to write for The New York Times. I never could imagine that I'd be a columnist. I could never imagine I'd write books. And if you knew where I grew up, you'd say this kid's. And, and it worked out and then we had two kids and I wrote a book and the book did really well. And then in 2013, my wife came to me and said, I want to start my own business.
[00:04:15] She'd worked in asset management for a long time. And I said, 100%, like, literally my life, my career. I couldn't have imagined this. And she said, I'm going to tell my boss tomorrow, and I said, I think that's a horrible idea. And she said, why is it? Because he's not a very nice person. And she's no, no, no, it'll be fine. And she came home and she was, she was immediately, everything was shut down. And she had to start a firm a lot more quickly than, than we had expected. And she turned to me and said, you know, what are we going to do with the kids? And I said, I'll become the lead dad. And she said, what does that mean? And I said, I have no idea, but is this really a time to panic?
[00:04:50] And what it meant was I had a schedule at the times writing books, giving talks where I could control, um, a lot of my time, like 80, 85 percent of my time I could control and, and it worked. But as I said, like I was an undercover lead dad. You know, I wasn't going around my town in Connecticut waving my hand saying, Paul Sullivan, lead dad. I wasn't getting on the train into New York saying, Paul Sullivan, lead dad. It was like, you know, Paul Sullivan, New York Times columnist, perhaps you've read my column. Um, and then we get to COVID and this is just untenable. And, and, and, you know, the whole thing was predicated on my kids being in school, my kids being at summer camp.
[00:05:21] It was not predicated on them being at home 24, 7, 4, you know, indeterminate length of time. And that's when I said, there has to be something for dads like me aand there wasn't, And then I did some research, there's a ton of dads out there who fit my, my definition of, of lead dad. And so I said, okay, you know, I think there's an opening here, but you know, how do you think I validated the thesis? I talked to working moms. I talked to working moms and said, you know, what do you think about this idea of a lead dad? Do you have a lead dad in your life? Do you think this would have been beneficial? And that's really what validated it. So a little over two years ago, I left the Times and started the company Dads. And, you know, so far so good. 
[00:05:56] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: That's brilliant. I love that the three of us share this common through line of how parenting actually fueled our purpose and we've built a community of like-minded individuals, which is really, really wonderful. I think it's so important for kids in this day and age to have a constant have this, you know, pillar of strength that they can always turn to. And we service that for our kids, which is, you know, such a privilege. So what kind of inspired you to work for Bright Horizons and what do you like most about your roles here? 
[00:06:37] Priya Krishnan: I joined Bright Horizons about four years ago, and I really like the fact that we have impact, you know, on families. It is really one family, one community, one child at a time, and how can you do that in a sustainable, scalable way is what Bright Horizons stands for, and that was part of the reason I joined Bright Horizons was How do you continue doing the work in an impactful way for a company that cares about this?
[00:07:04] And, you know, in, in a family's life, there are three stakeholders. It's the parents themselves. It's the employer, because those parents are working for someone and the government who's, you know, then gaining taxes from them and is reinvesting back into the economy. And I feel like Bright Horizons has this Uh, mechanism by which they're creating a rallying force around employers to say high quality child care comes at a cost. And how do employers play a role in providing access and affordability to their employees? And that felt like. really purposeful in both providing access and ensuring it was affordable. So that's why I love being here. It's the day to day impact on working families. 
[00:07:48] Paul Sullivan: You know, and for me, I was so thrilled. Last year I was a guest on the work life equation podcast and, and, uh, it went well. Uh, and, and then whenever Priya asked me if I'd be her, her co-host, I was thrilled. And, you know, we all have multiple kids here. Priya has two, you have three, I have three, You never pick favorites among your kids. As we say, you love them all. You may like one slightly better in one moment in time. But we have lots of corporate partners at the company of dads, but you know, it was just so remarkable and so validating that bright horizons wanted to reach out to the company of dads and partner and, you know, hopefully I'm not.
[00:08:21] You know, hopefully pretty agree with here, but she and I just have a great, uh, great rapport. We have a lot of fun. And it’s just been, it's such an interesting, fun time working with Priya. 
[00:08:30] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: That's wonderful. And I think it's important to, um, understand the different POVs. And so you bring that to the table. It's really great to be on the listening end of when you bring guests on and have your own exchange. Paul, what impact have you seen since founding the company of dads? Are there more dads kind of, um, joining this movement? I know you mentioned there are 20 million lead dads. Is that correct?
[00:09:03] Paul Sullivan: That's correct. Yep. 
[00:09:04] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: And so has that been growing since the pandemic now that people are shifting and you know, there is that one parent who has the more flexible schedule, who can be a little bit more hands on at home. 
[00:09:17] Paul Sullivan: Yeah, great question. I mean, it's growing in two ways. One, you know, millennials are living and working in a different way. And I knew in the beginning that they would be the group that would grow. Organically, the more of them that had children, the more of them would realize there has to be a different way to, you know, work and parent and be a person, you know, the other group is group where I fall, you know, dads in their forties and fifties for whom COVID was this massive, you know, wake up call.
[00:09:40] We suddenly realized that we could work remotely. And I often tell the story about my middle daughter's best friend. Um, both of her parents are oncologist at Memorial Sloan Kettering, and the dad is trying to cure a form of bile duct cancer. And I say, this guy has figured out that he can work from home two days a week and still cure cancer. I'm pretty sure I don't know anybody else who's curing cancer. So I think we all can have a little more, um, flexibility there. Um, and then I'd say like, you know, what, what is the company dad's done? I mean, I was really fortunate. The New York Times let me or asked me to write a final column to say why I was leaving and what I was going to go do.And what it did more than anything was it gave, um, a space and a voice to men who were lead dads. Because before this, the term was, you know, Mr. Mom. The term was, you know, House Husband the term was, hey, are you retired? And, you know, guys give each other nonsense all the time, and it's part of how we, you know, socialize.
[00:10:32] But now that you can, you know, call yourself lead dads, and we've had, you know, people from, you know, totally normal guys, you know, a lot of suburban New Jersey guys to, you know, former NFL players. Football players multiple Emmy award winners, the treasurer of the state of Illinois has come on to talk about his role of being a lead dad. So it's sort of named something that already exists in a positive way. And then that's given people, I think, the liberty and the cover and security [00:11:00] to, you know, come over and say, Hey, I'm a lead dad. I want to learn more. I want to be part of this. 
[00:11:04] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: One hundred percent. And I feel like we have a plethora of, you know, communities and organizations dedicated to mom and, you know, we need to have that, um, equity there and, uh, Priya, what inspires you most about being an advocate for, you know, working parents and families and providing the support that they need, uh, with childcare?
[00:11:27] Priya Krishnan: I think comes from a very personal belief that, you know, you have to be, you know, Personally anchored to be professionally successful. So you have to be at a place where you feel good about yourself, your loved ones that they've taken care of. And then once one that that happens, I think you give 100 percent to work. So just acknowledging the fact that this is a so creating a space where there is shared understanding and solidarity that this you're not alone in the journey is one part of it, then sort of rallying for the supports that working parents need. So that they can fulfill this other side of them, which is a working professional where they achieve their goals day to day and they achieve them for their for their organization. So I think it gets me out of bed. It makes me feel really good because that's exactly how I function. I feel like, you know, there are enough people out there who require this support. 
[00:12:25] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: Yes. And Shirley, you, you know, both have been beneficiaries being part of an organization like this. What is kind of the paid leave policy and parental leave policy that Bright Horizons gives its employees? I think it's really remarkable that it, you know, starts from the inside. 
[00:12:45] Priya Krishnan: Yeah, it does. And it's also just, you know, besides the paid leave, parent leave, it is the support. As you go into work and your care breaks down or you need full time care support and your life stages change and you could have pets that you care about. You have elders that you care about. You have self that you want to care about. And how do you ensure that sustained support exists so that you can continue working and it isn't a breakdown at some other life stage. 
[00:13:18] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: Yes. Let's talk about, you know, your show. So you've had really distinguished guests on and, you know, a variety of topics. What is one episode that really sticks out to you where you felt that the tangible takeaways were so apparent for the audience? 
[00:13:39] Paul Sullivan: I don't know. I think I don't want to speak for Priya, but she and I have been talking about one episode with Dr. Aditi Nerurkar, who is a doctor at Harvard and the sort of the five resets that you can do in your life  Priya and I, we're good students we read all the books that get sent to us, we don't skim them, we take notes, and we both read the book and we ended up reading it a second time because we had to change the first recording, and after we recorded that, when we got together a couple days later to do another set of recordings, we both said that we've been applying, like, her rules to our own lives, and I gave the book to my wife, my wife is like, I've got to meet this woman, I was like, you have to meet this woman, this woman's amazing, and that was really one that It was so concrete that we could say, yeah, why wouldn't we do this?
[00:14:27] And she gives this great example in the book of this doctor friend who only plays a guitar on the weekends. And she says, well, that's kind of ridiculous. Why wouldn't you just play a guitar on Wednesday? And he's like. Wait a second. I could play guitar on Wednesday. And, you know, after we got together, after we did the, the recording, I had a beautiful day and I had a gap in my schedule. I was like, I'm going to go outside for a couple of hours. And they did. And it felt great as opposed to like, well, I have to wait until Saturday to do that. And then Saturday it's raining. So she, she's, uh, you know, we loved them all again. Like our kids, we don't play favorites, but she was a guest where she had a lot of really actionable advice that, that, you know, the host of the show took, took to heart.
[00:15:05] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: Yes, I could vouch for that. I mean, I have an alarm clock and old school alarm clock. Thanks to Dr because I don't want to have my phone at my nightstand did, you know, definitely affects your data brainwaves and it's like, that shouldn't be the 1st thing you see as you're going to sleep or waking up.
[00:15:23] Priya Krishnan: Yeah, it's true. Like even I got an old-fashioned alarm clock, which rings and it's like, okay, this is how I used to wake up when I was younger. 
[00:15:33] Paul Sullivan: I don't need that. I have a six year old. I have a six year old who's guaranteed to wake me up before anything. So I got a personalized wake up in the morning.
[00:15:41] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: Oh, I would use a Snuggles any day over the jarring beeping. That's great. And what would you say is one of the most important life lessons you've learned from parenting, I feel like for me, and I'm sure you relate, parenting has made us better leaders. You know, we're more compassionate, more empathetic, more purpose driven. So, you know, what are some of those kind of nuances and changes that you've seen in yourself after becoming a parent. 
[00:16:16] Priya Krishnan: You know, so I think the fact that you're responsible for another human being suddenly, like you get married and you have another human being in your life, you have your parents. This is like you've given birth to this, this wonderful being who you now have the responsibility to, you know, guide and sort of nurture and provide the right context and the right values to. Just that sense of responsibility was very overwhelming. But I think through the parenting journey, you also realize like you're not, you're not alone. Not to take yourself too seriously, that they do turn out okay in spite of you, not really because of you, there are multiple factors that contribute to how they turn out, and that's actually turned into a good lesson just to say actually everything turns out okay, it is fine and you can pull back from it. If you can do that right for your kids, I think you can do it in most situation. And that's been my takeaway from the 19 years at least so far. Who knows what the next 19 bring? 
[00:17:25] Paul Sullivan: I mean, I love that. But I guess I would add that  with three kids and my wife working, I'm working, being really present in whatever it is that I'm doing and the times that I'm able to sort of skate by, you know, multitasking. It’s really rare and bad things usually happen. Usually, you know, I'm not really focused on work or my child needs me. And really it's that, you know, we had another guest on who talked about work life sway and swaying back and forth and being super present in whatever you're doing and, and that's something that, you know, my mere 14 [00:18:00] and a half years of parenting I've really pinto practice and, and it works. And then when I try to get a little too big for my britches and try to do too many things all at once, it doesn't work. And I'm always reminded that being present is really key to being a parent. 
[00:18:14] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: Yes, 100%. And do you have a hack to just stay motivated? Because, you know, oftentimes we get bogged down by the monotony, sometimes living in silos in our nuclear unit. And we need to just, you know, You know, stay uplifted. Is there something that like, okay, this is my reset and it keeps me going. 
[00:18:38] Priya Krishnan: Mine's actually just getting out and going for a walk. Soover the years I tried doing. I would walk and I would listen to music, I would listen to a podcast but I've stopped doing that. I really walk with the intent of ambling around and being almost mindless and perambulating and looking at things around you, noticing things around you. And I think that gives you, it's 10 minutes, it's 15 minutes, but it calms you, at least it calms me down in a way that's really helpful says, okay, great. Now, you've seen a bunch of things, which, and you observe other people, you observe day to day things that are going on. And,it reframes at least my mind to come back to, uh, to doing whatever we do. And I think there's enough joy in the work, but you're right. There is monotony and you can get caught up. And so you need to find these little resets that help. 
[00:19:36] Paul Sullivan: Yeah, I think that's something similar. And maybe, I don't know if it's because I'm an only child or not, but it I try to insist that I, for myself, that I have 45 minutes by myself. Each day, and that may be early in the morning, uh, with a cup of coffee, looking outside reading some stuff, nothing, you know, monumental. I'm not, you know, solving any giant problems or it's in the evening and it's unwinding with a glass of tea or a glass of wine or something like that. And just kind of having a little bit of alone time. And again, it's 45 minutes, but I noticed a difference when, when I don't get that because it just allows me to say, okay, I think I have this and you go on to the next day because you're right.
[00:20:16] It's like, one day can bleed into the next can bleed into the next and next, you know, many years have gone past. And my wife and I often joke, like, we remember our twenties and early thirties a lot. A lot more clearly than we do the past 15 years of having kids, except for when you have those moments of joy, the punctuated, you know, trips, this and that and, and so that, that alone time to sort of reset and get some perspective is super important to me.
[00:20:38] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: Yes. 100%. I know I find myself doing, you know, a myriad of things. Even if it's just 10 to 15 minutes of reading or journal writing. If I'm up early in the morning and doing morning pages, or I just send myself voice notes just to feel like I have this outlet that I'm kind of dumping on to, so that's great. These are really great hacks. Now let's get into the lightning round. And so if you can come up with one word that comes to mind a short phrase when I ask the question. So the first is: How do you define your work life equation?
[00:21:25] Priya Krishnan: Really one that I don't give myself a hard time about it is it can be work at times and it can be life at times and it's okay. 
[00:21:36] Paul Sullivan: I would say fortunate. That I'm fortunate to be in a position where I can think about my work-life equation and do that arithmetic on a day to day, week to week basis and try to come up with the best answer. So definitely fortunate. 
[00:21:55] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: That's great. And what is your go to way to unwind when you're not leading with the family or handling carpool duties or galvanizing your team to work on the next launch? What is that for you? 
[00:22:13] Priya Krishnan: It's the walks. And I would say. Yeah, reading, those are the two things that sort of get me into a zone of happiness.
[00:22:25] Paul Sullivan: Yeah, for me, it's hitting golf balls. And this goes back to being a kid. Like my parents were divorced and as I jokingly say, they were bad at being married. It turns out they're worse at being divorced. So I spent a lot of time with my grandfather who is a retired postal worker and he played golf with all of his retired friends, post office buddies. And I started playing when I was 10. And so sometimes I'll go and, you know, if it's nice out, I'll go for 20 minutes, half an hour and just totally clears my head. But it's even gotten to the point where in the winter, I bought all this ridiculous stuff from my office and I hit rubber golf balls all around my office. And my kids know when they hear things ping ponging off the walls, not to come in because they're going to get hit by a big orange rubber ball. But there's something about that. It brings me back to when I was 10 and with my that just is an amazing way to reset. 
 [00:23:13] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: That's so cool. And what kind of empowering advice could you give the parents who are listening to the show that are seeking to excel in their careers, but also be present in their home life?
[00:23:29] Priya Krishnan: And I think it's more so now than ever. Careers are not constant, they're a continuum, you could have several careers in a lifetime, and just giving yourself grace to say, there are, there are phases in your life where some things are more important than the other, and not having regrets around saying, I'm focusing on my children right now and it's lower on work, if that is the choice you're making, that you can always reset, and you can always rediscover. And I'm envious of younger people now because that's become even more of an opportunity than at least when I started out my career. So look at it with hope and with positivity. 
[00:24:14] Paul Sullivan: Yeah. And on my end, I would tell them, both dads and moms, you're not alone. Ask for help. I mean, we're in a time in this world where any question you have, you can pretty much find a community that can help you answer that question. And don't feel like you have to soldier on. I mean, you're not the first person to have a child. You're not the first person to have a child and have to work. There are people who have done it before you and can give you advice and hopefully save you some of the mistakes that we all make. So just remember, you're not alone in this. We're all in this together. 
[00:24:48] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: Yes, absolutely. And I think we were in a time where, really, we are kind of filled with all these opportunities at our fingertips. And the fact that work from home exists. I mean, I think back to Dolly Parton's Nine to Five song and my has our work culture changed. And so we are kind of given this opportunity to, um, lean into our roles in the home. And you know, they kind of are melded together. So it's a great time to be a working professional and a parent. 
[00:25:28] Paul Sullivan: I love that you referenced Dolly Parton on this quick aside, my wife drives our six year old to school every day and Dolly Parton's nine to five Came on and she said, uh huh. Mama. Can you play that again? Yeah, I guess yeah, why not but and by the third time there's a six year old sitting in her booster sheet in the back of the car singing nine to five
 [00:25:55] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: That is awesome. Oh my goodness. Well, thank you so much, Priya and Paul for joining me on The Work-Life Equation and having me turn the tables and interview you both. You've had illustrious careers and thank you for the impact that you're leaving. 
[00:26:14] Priya Krishnan: Well, thank you, Kanika. And thank you for tuning into this, for all of you for tuning into this special episode of The WorkLife Equation, where you're hearing Paul and I in the hot seat. I think you'll enjoy the episode and you should tune into Kanika's podcast, which has over a million, downloads so far. So we thank you for having us here and thank you for being on the show with us, Kanika. 
[00:26:40] Paul Sullivan: Thank you, Kanika. 
[00:26:41] Kanika Chadda-Gupta: Most welcome. This was so fun.